Tellor Vision Call October 6th 2022

Youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osnTB5OTnKk&t=1s&ab_channel=Tellor

Official links: https://linktr.ee/Tellor

On this final call during Tellor Week, the Tellor core team is joined by Mike Ghen of Ricochet.exchange to discuss the future of Tellor and the crypto space at large. 

Whole call

Today we’ll finish it off with branding and marketing we do values now like what's the vision for Tellor I guess like the bigger question is like what are you all going to be working on over the next two years hopefully we're all still around for the next two years and building on this thing and it's going phenomenal but to get there you know like I'll give like my take on I guess where do we think the space is going because that's sort of necessary if you want to know like what we're going to need to do and where we're going to need to be. Where is the space going in you know like obviously there's like a one-year five-year 10-year Horizon but we're kind of building for That Sweet Spot of like the next one the five years and you don't want to you don't want to do anything now like is that's how you fall into like nft phrases and things like that but over then over the next one to five years where do we see it obviously the world is now multi-chain so I think crypto will emerge from the spare Market again and we you know it it'll have some new use case defy has obviously found a use case people will continue to use DeFi next time it's going to be even bigger the tools for wallets for people the number of you know it's people are just going to get in it you're going to see more and more but like maker didn't people are going to start issuing loans on these platforms sell them globally people are going to be going after some of these yield opportunities with hedge funds it's going to keep getting bigger which is awesome the other thing too is it's going to it's going to be multi-chain so there's Ethereum's you know hopefully successfully move forward with the merge here I think we're going to see a lot of people just moving to Roll-Ups. I don't think there's these side chains now that are coming up or not side chains but like alt l1s. I think alt l1s are almost a dead narrative in my mind. I think unless you're a very established one like a cosmos maybe or like a something like that unless you're an L2 off of Ethereum's it's going to be really tough to compete just because it's so convenient being an L2 alphabeterian so yeah if the bridges are solved is there going to be really that much appreciable difference between a roll-up and another L1 Bridges aren't solved but if in the next two you just don't see that happening in the next two years no bridges are never going to be solved like the Oracle problems like but yeah so it's it's just different traits but I think the biggest thing I mean it obviously doesn't really matter too much for us the the big question is going to be I think you're going to see a lot more centralized Roll-Ups type structures so it's not going to be completely censorship resistant type stuff some of them will be but you know like you can easily create like an optimism and stuff like without resistance and our sweet spot is going to be in the censorship resisting category but your privacy a lot more change that aren't as censorship resistant and they're just more open about it convenience yeah well and I think you're going to see a lot more regulatory issues you know the tornado cash thing was huge it's going to continue to be a big issue lots and lots of people are going to figure out how to launder money on these things and zero knowledge you know like zero knowledge things are here to say like if you see like okay so what does it look like in five to ten years what's what's there gonna be there's gonna be a you're probably gonna have like a ZK roll up or some sort of rope that's completely private everything the smart contracts and everything on there are completely private you can transfer completely privately and you know there's no front running because it's private and the question is okay so like can we create that like theoretically like we're five years away from that being a pretty good possibility regulatory wise not even close like like nothing will get abused and you can use it for money laundering you use it for anything but it's just private by default it's going to be amazing so like how can we if we see like in my mind I see that as being something that's that's gonna happen so like how can we make sure so Regulators won't allow it so then how can we make sure that like we sort of set ourselves up for Success private evm chains and I think that that's another assumption I'm making like an evm change like writing smart contracts and EDM is sort of one for the next five years it's what is that yeah evm is one evm is one in my mind people still call to me I want to learn Russ why yeah I know it's it's gonna be tough to beat out BBM at this point so that's like my vision anybody else have thoughts on my vision or yeah disagreements yeah I think something else is a culture I think there's too much momentbehind evm it's for all the well it seems that's where the talent is for the interest is so many things are built on ethereMagnet or on other VM chains yeah I don't see anything else if I can take another problem I'm also relatively bearish on Dao's why so what's wrong about that I think for the best but it's really hard to get people to vote on things it's really hard to get people to care about things yeah and and that's on a large scale making the small scale deals still have a great place well I think from a legal perspective just looking at it like you know we've talked to lawyers about it like what benefit do gals provide and it's you know most of these Dows are doxed people like they're not Anonymous they're sorry they're completely doxed and you're just like so if you aren't docks in the Dow like you actually you're just giving away a lot of your corporate protections like if you're a Delaware C Corp like you know companies have worked really hard for a long time to make sure that you as a CEO could not go to prison your corporation does something wrong but if you're down something wrong if you're down to something that's wrong and you're the lead developer who did that those court cases have not yet been done right so I you know not not that it necessarily matters as much for Tellor as if that was takeoff or not but you know like I I think there are ways that I think new tokens are are still going to happen people using tokens to bootstrap things you can have governance tokens I think people are I think over the next five years people are going to start saying like Fu to the SEC and they're just gonna you know like you're gonna have unicewaps that from day one have fees built into them and you get fees taken you know and there's fees towards governance token holders because that's that's basically you know like if Tellor makes fees and you're required to vote to get those fees that's what makes people care about because you get fees you know that that's how the system sort of makes it you know because we know that people don't just vote on their own but if you force them to vote if you want any reward now now you now you have a sort of crypto economic in a way so that's how I think that's how I'm thinking about it nothing Owen Graham tally anything when are we setting our countdown timer for when we're fired you know these like automatic things just automatically yeah so it depends you know like we can it's not necessarily that we all want to be fired like you know like I think they're I think our jobs are just gonna shift so you know we we do get this token revenue and NF Tellor is successful the token will hold value and we're going to make this money but it's a question of what do we do so you know if you look at like a really mature ecosystem like in etherethere's still people you want to pay like whether it's your funding on grants organization whether it's you know like you still have like core contributors that it'll be a lot of just maintenance of the software but you want to just maintain it and have somebody do it and that's not a bad thing and then also you know like I said like I I've said this before like I hope like 90 of our job is like we organize a hackathon here like we've really made it whenever like setting up telecon every every year is like fun job of ours yeah that would be cool setting up people's metamasks for them so they can start their crypto Journey or onboarding people into the seller ecosystem well and yeah and I think too like as part of any ecosystem the more successful we get the more that you want you become sort of a broader sort of you know you have to support the whole ecosystem so if we're massively successful our coin is billions and billions of dollars and Tellor is being used on a massive scale it is the Oracle of choice people are basically maintaining and using us without contacting us that that's the dream that's the vision you do things like like COINBASE did they they're funding the tornado cash lawsuit that's awesome you do things like you have to help people just get into crypto and start developing in general like like you have to sort of take a bigger mindset you have to start you know it has to become more and more engaged in the crypto ecosystem as a whole which is fun yeah anyway and that was never completely final never completely what I know what everybody wants to me that everyone's getting fired so I mean like you know what what's our deadline for like when the majority of us are like all right yeah there's only we only need like three people that organize this hackathon like once a year you know what I mean well I think it's gonna be a lot of it is also like what's our deadline for just being completely decentralized other than those like three people who need to carry the torch with like hackathons or whatever you know what I mean because at some point like you would think that Regulators would come for Tellor as well wouldn't they they will I mean so like once we move to 360 we we can't sort of upgrade anymore like anything is you know like that that's a huge milestone for us as far as decentralization goes because like if then we do walk away and just shut down like nothing happens to tell her like like it's just fine which is great so after 360 is more of a you know making sure that everything worked in words well we're gonna yeah I got a whole list of things we can still do but you know like I think the first people you know I mean just saying like decentralized like yeah it is a huge milestone like our smart contracts you know giving this upgrade but our whole process and people interacting with Tellor protocol like and decentralized and so I feel like it would be cool to have a deadline like there's a lot there's a huge huge gap between 360 launching and this point where there's only like one two or three people organizing a yearly banquet there's like a lot in between yeah well and I think you would even talked about it on the values called the the more that you can let go is like after you get a little bit of product Market fit you know like you want to make sure you have that first before before you just let it go you know if you don't have that Crux you know like ethereobviously has like a product Market fit with the evm and and that's phenomenal so like they don't have to push people to use it anymore it's sort of taken off we're not there with Tellor chain Link's not there you know it's like it's not one of those things that any Oracle could say like okay this is going to be the standard format for using oracles going forward yeah and I think you get to that point once you're not doing like white glove Integrations when you're not really touching it that's when you're like okay you know we're no longer needed yeah but how do we get there that's what we need to focus on after 360. okay so patients Integrations you're going to keep doing free work and tell our instructor yes have you ever do any recent events for that okay I go to the Super fluid guys I'm like you know those Tellor guys when they integrate they do the code they're nice for you guys do I'm like they have like 10 of the staff even have like you guys really can't make time to help you out we have 10 years in third step yeah yeah you guys are like when I asked I have a problem like on a call with you so I'll call with them I'm just like pulling teeth trying to get someone else well now you got sunny over there yeah he's not they never let me talk to him he does like developer relations I always get like something oh that's like yeah it's just like pointy to get some help so yeah people people it's crazy I know isn't it crazy how many years like they should they should you start their CEO yeah I'm talking to the CEO about a licensing agreement because they're starting to use my code all over the place it's under a lifestyle agreements my code is under a uniswap style Business Service license oh that's okay I should have done that because that would be more defenseful than what I have now but super really look it'll be open source and people can use it but it's just given three years to like get ahead of everyone and make the next thing a converging forward for that of our business license you're done making excuses yeah all right back to the integration today I love the integration thing there are plenty of other products I think that could be built around Tellor that like we talked about like real estate ETF kind of things and you know indexing things to inflation I was thinking about making like a Time token like mint the rest of my career time that I would sell and then start at 100 and index it to inflation and just be like this is and then every year just for like every week you're just learning like probably like five hours a week for the rest of my life and then every week just put my five tokens yeah see how to let that run my whole life and people want to work with me it's like yeah I'll work for you for an hour like so stuff like that okay but I guess so so where do we need to get to I know we've talked about this so we've seen the vision for the space I think we're all kind of in agreement as far as like what does a successful Tellor look like you know as far as the solidity contracts goes they're just anybody can deploy them anybody can use them anybody can access them the token is used as far as the staking goes people actively vote on disputes and are taking part of it active fees are running back into token holders that would that's ideal that that's what we're looking for as far as censorship as far as reporters go we have a broad distributed network of reporters we have people using multiple different clients hopefully you know whether we support multiple or we just support one as the reference implementation either way it's decentralized people are doing it they're making changes pull requests things like that maybe we still maintain one of the repos but that's sort of Ideal that that's kind of how I Envision it then over time yeah we just you know slowly slowly it just becomes the standard this is how you interact with blockchain data is through you know the system for retelling I want to expand on any you know like I don't know that would be like ideally the vision for me so if like in five years where do I want to be that's it I have a completely stable system and you know just the team yeah so and then I mentioned it in in the call the other day but people can just easily integrate new types of data themselves yeah it's very straightforward and yeah they just don't have to rely on our White Glove they're handling anymore I I it's a much smaller scale than this but like I imagine it's what someone like metallic feels like when you create something like etherethat takes a completely a life of its own that can be managed and stewarded by anyone and a variety of people that he has no association with or doesn't interact with and people have free access to create and build on top of that sort of thing and it sort of takes on a life of its own and you know we can look back and look at it and see how it's developed and and turning into something maybe maybe we even didn't Envision maybe we didn't even have a hand in that aspect of it anymore now okay yeah how do we get that so what are some things what are some things that we might have to change so like we can't do solidity upgrades but you can still change the Oracle contract to make it better so what are some pieces of the system that may that I see potentially being issues that we may want to change some of the issues I think may come around as far as the voting on disputes and the governance contract if there is right now that the system works with multiple chains but it doesn't work as well if there's thousands and thousands of chains if there's thousands and thousands of chains because as you guys know the voting on The disputes and so the more reports you have and the more tips you have that like makes it makes it more secure and then you have to bridge Tellor over to these specific networks that could if there's each app has a specific chain and the only user on that app is that one chain it could get it's not as secure as you could potentially make if you had you could manipulate the vote a little bit easier so and you can do that now on newer chains we know this there's some ways that you could get around it basically like having the governance token balances stay on maintenance and then you you could Bridge them over you know this is like a Yuma Style approach well you Yuma does all the voting on mainnet but you could you could just like Bridge the token balances over as far as that goes so so there could be some options there that I would love to explore over time nothing that I think is worthy of necessarily talking about right now but you know just because now now there's like five successful chains we're not quite at the point where there's thousands there's like you know with five yes it works ours is it works just fine five years maybe sure but functioning and with users playing at the game during my hand right now or like what scenarios can we consider and prepare for or like yeah it would be amazing it's probably idealistic but making this Oracle sort of future proof no matter which Avenue the future takes you know like maybe it's impossible but like you should try for it for sure you need to be like trying to account for a future with thousands of chains right now or like the Oracle or would it be more beneficial to test like auto pay for you know because like that's well completely agree yeah we're we're talking distant future hypothesizing on this call yeah you know that's like the only thing I see like really needing could potentially change if the vision plays out I think and ultimately taking our vote yeah I mean yeah taking our team weight out I think that's going to be something we can look at over the next year so I I would want to push it to some sort of delegated boat contract so like 25 of the vote is to delegates something like that and then then it's more decentralized than on the team or just throw it to the zero address something I think it just depends how many users we have at the time and whether or not we're stable enough to do that yeah but then other things so that that's like distant what are we going to work on now oh the the other thing too would be like if we do go to multiple chains like we right now we have time-based rewards only on maintenance if Maine net effort goes away and people are that it's just sort of this role of validation chain it doesn't necessarily make as much sense to do that so we're figuring out some way to change that but like I said not an issue for a while could you clarify this is a maybe I mean you don't understand this on the same level but after 360 what sets what contract what sets of parameters do we have access to change nothing nothing you just just it just okay and then we have to remember when we broke it when I broke it yes we would do the same thing and we'd have to go through the migration process well you could if there's a well you you could hardport the Oracle contract without necessarily hard-working the token credit card so that's because they're separate yeah so so that allows us to a little bit more hard for it without having to do anything with their token migration right which is huge so what are we going to work on no the biggest thing is let's just you know we've talked about it before how do we how do we get more users how do we make sure our thing actually works the biggest way we're going to do that a is just continuing to reach out to users continuing to just Implement them for them the other thing is we're going to be doing more and more examples and our own projects we've talked about doing a dollar auction for ourselves we've talked about building you know more if you guys think of a cool data type let's throw it up on chain you know this is probably for like more of the guys who do like a lot of the solidity stuff let's you know let's throw new data types on chain and give people ideas they love ideas people don't come up with their own ideas so you have to do that I asked the CIO in Philadelphia I'm like would you you're because they're looking for projects in the Mortal space I was like is there city data that you would just be willing to like put on chain like I'm sure I'm sure it would cost you guys anything and you just didn't get it why would we put the data on shape we need like a pile of projects I'm like just put the data out there on a chain like and then you know just tell the show talk to developers like you already do that they already do that with open data platform they're like oh we have this open data platform but you know to use any of that in a smart contract you'd have to put it on chains so yeah and I also think just like going into a city and putting every house this value won't change because once a year would be a nice data set too yeah yeah that'd be awesome and really pushed the Horizon of like the flavor of like types of projects that can be done I remember Nick had a friend that came to the office that was talking about like putting medical data on chain just for like open experimentation and for transparency about the prices of medical procedures across like different hospitals or different providers yeah for me like doing stuff that doesn't have to do with like price data is always fun well I think that we definitely can do our own projects in-house projects and with that we continue to improve our documentation and polish our processes because I I really don't want to take like 20 projects the next year in our documentation in automated processes are not working well I think that's yeah the way that we've been to work so that we can actually function as a program so we would I think this is something more like that we will talk about something where we have to balance between going you know in and doing all those six-stop projects and making sure that what we have it's actually useful for anybody to come and actually use it without either giving to us to integrate from personally yeah the new integration looks a little complicated I don't really look too much into it but I use like bites and stuff so that's like new I'm sure I'm sure if I want to do it be simple but just looking over it like I might need a little more yeah well I think that's the whole point of be using it ourselves is so we have to force ourselves to go through the documentation and update it I found two critical thoughts just you building stuff with superfluid in their protocol so nothing better than just like using it and doing stuff yeah yeah well I mean even like you know I think it's been great like study's been hitting Telly hard and he finds stunts issues you know like if we didn't if we weren't doing that on our own we wouldn't be you know we wouldn't have found so many of those so it's awesome you know everything so I'll be pushing us forward Brenda will be pulling us back no I'll be making sure that he's actually polished there's nothing awards that I'm working with processes that are just hot because then when you want to actually create something that is automated or something that works like nicely a little bit of worry so much about it it's it's you can't do it because it's all happy it's like you know just made it work for this one case for this other case and some of the things like we know that we shouldn't have to like recreate over and over again it should just work but yeah I mean in order to get to that point where you know the team is more like stewards rather than like building new features and whatnot our docs have to be like stripe GitHub level you know what I mean so yeah and we'll get there yeah that's a big feature that you know it's obviously developers were not actually contact us we'll actually be able to use this without our help yeah sounds like they can be joint efforts that help each other definitely that's the only way that we're gonna actually get sleep so I mean another fun one that I want to work on too is it goes into it's sort of like another example type thing but I think we could work on just more gas efficient methods for putting data on chain so similar to like you know like all the housing prices in Philadelphia how would you actually put that on chain like yeah I ideally you you could back some together put it into a giant Merkle tree or something and then that's right teach people how to do it and like but we would want to make that a documented process so we like people don't have to like I have a hundred thousand data points how do I put them all on chain not saying like well we'll figure it out like this is how you do it this is you know unfortunately this is how you have to do it but and it's a Merkel tree and you gotta figure it out but like you can do it and and teaching people how to do those things is going to be cool same with you know whether it's token balances or bridging information you know you could like build a like client from another system using Color like lots and lots of possibilities but we just actually have to probably build that up poor people rather than like right now we accept fights you can obviously do it it's just why would you not build it you can take fees on these things like you don't build something that takes to be an extra fun you really only need like one or two Flagship products and I can generate a lot I mean Ricochet generates like 50 Grand and all said and done and all this stuff so like it's possible right yeah that's just really a Tellor product so let's use a group of powder a clean way you could save some gas or you're still doing five ERC six erc20 transfers something more efficient than five transactions and now it's just one per person no no it's whatever there's not apply you're on like yeah 2019. yeah we'll ignore Mike's comments for now so those will be some fun projects we can do and then and then I think I'll tell you the biggest thing with telia that we have to do is a we're working on just getting it stable and documented easy how to add a new data type it's the next thing and then the big thing I want to work on also over the next year is the disputable value monitor so like because ideally like Tellor security works is if we have a dispute of these beautiful things somebody automatically disputes it really fast and then somebody else puts the data on chain really fast how do we how do we automate that and make sure it's secure it's a super super hard problem but making sure that that whole system works as it should and continue to test it out it's it's a challenge but yeah is the person who does the dispute is the person who's in the best position to get that tip also yeah to resubmit that but it could happen like in one thing oh do this view wait for that to transaction to succeed and then also submit the value at the same time so the thing that I think is interesting about the DVM is that the distributable values monitor is that like currently the majority of clients of or rather that the DVM sources information sources objectivity from the same place that tally it does in the majority of reporters are Talia I think it's just a little interesting because I think like the source of objectivity that the DVM gets or rather like what I mean is that where it defines like what the values are is really a harder problem that than than it sort of seems on face value in that sense especially because like 90 of reporters or maybe more are like thinking in the same thinking in the same vein and getting truth from the same place as the report as the DVM it's all for the reporters themselves but then I think the the further problem is like something that I've been working on on the DVM is like okay beyond the price feeds like if we start expanding to things that are more subjective like where is the DVM going to get its understanding of Truth and like in are there cases where like are there cases where disputes disputable truth can like not be automated but rather it needs a little bit more of like human participation yeah that's how it's a super super tough problem yeah and that that's why we have to come up with thresholds and people have to be able to set them to their own risk tolerances and actually go look at the data eventually yeah you know dispute something that that is not obviously wrong actually well we've always said and I think it's so true that the user of the data is the person who should decide if the data is accurate or not and they you know they're not Super Active in participating in that part of the panel but I hope that they will be imputed thank you yeah we could have a whole brainstorming session just on that yeah maybe we should pretty sure values monitor I mean the first problem you mentioned Charlie like that's mostly on test net on mainnet it's not like the majority of reporters are using telly for sure that's true you know so I was estimating we could always have a user that source the grounds make sure that we push them to maybe around their own DPM or whatever you guys are calling it well yeah you would want to tell people to set up a monitor you know like as a user is from this yeah I mean they shouldn't be running the distributable values monitor they should be like setting up their own monitor for their own system based on what they think is correct so the code for the for the disputable values model will be there and you say like well here's here's what we do but this is not going to work for you because we're monitoring everything and you only need to monitor your data is it possible to just wondering in the DVM you know probably could be currently no but it's something we could we could build out I think for sure I mean I agree that they should be the ones responsible for their own protocol but we could if it's an easy to put in to run when I came you know so when I want to do this what is the Dem and being a monitor just beautiful yeah can we not start using acronyms I hate acronyms no values monitor is such a mouthful dude acronyms I disagree I'll send you an article daily well it doesn't automatically just you oh it doesn't automatically it doesn't automatically just be to just notifies here something is disputable via text message with twilio suck YOLO could do yellow mode DVM YOLO mode it's still like it's still the dispute pause is still less than the winnings right was it 10 times less or yeah so you know if you if it's one out of 10. yeah restart so that's kind of all we got I think you know it seems like we all sort of know that Vision it's gonna be this next year after 360 Comes live like it's going to be a lot of documentation a lot of making sure that it's really good and then where we have free time it's building out examples and that's well that's where superclue has got in trouble because they built out an example that's just Ricochet I'm like super pissed because they have not only did they build that but they also just like took two people from Ricochet that built it and you know it's like you look at my code in there and there's only stealing it anyway if you're gonna build you're gonna build yeah just don't rip off your customer stuff yeah go to hackathons and try to find people who are going to make competitive products okay okay that's cool so that's one idea so we build a regular channel well there I mean you guys could there's like a small part you could do it but you'll have to pay your license we've entered the Shark Tank no was anything anything that that you know was just said like surprising to anybody or you guys concerned about the past go steam ahead let's go cool so you guys going to like immediately start like 147360 and like tinkering around with a fork no you know was that it's just going to be sort of doing this other stuff and doing the other stuff yeah keeping an eye on his face and then if something happens yeah I mean yeah probably maybe like we can revisit it in six months and see like how does it work what if it's working built once it's broken yeah I mean usually like with anything you know like luckily this is you know we're going to be able to use the vast majority of what we've done over the last year moving forward into 360 but you give it six months and like if we're not seeing like the usage or the product Market fit we like we come back to the table and figure out what's wrong right is this the strategy of like creating products around the tower because it's just mixing telegraphy yeah like how do you how do you fix Tellor to get to get that usage that we want you know like if it is one of those things where you know hopefully we get it to the point that that the tech is really good and you know like maybe maybe the tech is to the point that it's you know with with 360 the tech is good and we we actually just we're lacking on the biz Dev side we need to get out and do that then it's like okay well if that's something that we yeah well right like if that's the problem then Brendan and I are now on the marketing team it's working you guys have fun doing the dev stuff and we're going to be full-time trying to meet people you know so it depends on where do we see the biggest issue being and that's going to be where we go and what we do next and that that's kind of like the fun of being a startup like you know I know and said like when do we fire you it's like hopefully we never fire you because if you guys are flexible enough we'll put you on where we can use you you know like Ryan's doing an awesome job he's stepped up he's becoming our front-end developer yeah so you know it's just fine find where you can add value and do it so anyway but we're doing good so any final thoughts Akram you were quiet hey what's up hi Mike I'm sorry it's all good no I mean I'm just looking forward to not being being I guess just teaching instead of just doing cool anybody else you guys gonna go back on the hackathon circuit I noticed you haven't been sponsoring we're sponsoring right now oh are you right now I just remember the other one you guys have a table to eat New York City all right I'll stop recording see you guys